This Mat & Chat was hosted on on Instagram Live on Sunday, January 31st, 2021. The chat followed a 25 minute mat workout.
Victoria: So you are live from Poland right now, right? The first thing I wanted to talk about is your background. It is so interesting and diverse, and I don’t’ know where to begin. I know that you great up in Africa, now you live in Poland, but you’re Canadian, too, right?
Jacqueline: So I basically was born and raised in Africa.
Victoria: Okay- where in Africa?
Jacqueline: In the Ivory Coast, Cote d’Ivor, and my dad was French, and my mom is Canadian. So basically, the short story is my dad was in Africa for many years prior to marrying my mom. What happened is my dad left and was in the Navy for the year and got his engineering degree in Paris. One morning, he woke up and bought a one-way ticket to Africa. He didn’t know why- he just went. That’s where I get my free-spirit from- from my dad. So he flew to Africa and he was the CEO of the Caterpillar company at the time, but his real, real passion was saving orphans from poachers. So I grew up with wild cats, and a chimpanzee- Catherine, who I bonded with for 6 years- so we had that, and that was basically my life.
But before that, he worked with Kruger National Park and had a preserve outside of the city. When there was a lot of orphans- because there were a lot of killings at the time, and there still are- my dad would basically rescue orphans in addition to his job where he made money. That was his passion. Over time, he got malaria. When he got malaria, he couldn’t fly back to France because of the war, so he flew to a hospital in Toronto, and my mother was a nurse!
Victoria: No way!
Jacqueline: So he asked my mom out first, and she said: “No, no.” My mom was really caring for him, but other nurses were too, and after his release he dated (as a Frenchman) every nurse, but his heart was set on my mom, and he never gave up. After when he was released, he stayed to try and pursue my mom to marry him, which she did. So they got married and flew back to the Ivory Coast, and then I was born. So that’s where I was born. I was there until the age of 14, and like I said, I grew up with wild animals, so for me- the animals are my safe haven. Given the choice between human beings, I would take animals any day.
Being in Africa with my parents, and my dad especially, basically taught me everything. It showed me what real poverty is. My dad was also with the Red Cross- he did a lot of charity work. We would go and villages where people had been raped, because of the genocide, and mass killings, and when we would go to these villages, sometimes we would get stopped by “cops.” And my dad always had cash- but at any time, I could have been killed. I just didn’t care, though. I wasn’t afraid of dying. I would help my dad with the villagers. One scene that I’ll never forget: you have a deflated soccer ball, and the children are playing with it. Some of them have lost limbs from the genocide- but they just had this joie de vivre. They just wanted to live! They were the happiest people, and they had nothing. They had nothing! Nothing. I was playing with them and realized: “Oh my goodness, wow.” It changed my whole view as I moved on to adulthood and everything.
With the chimpanzee we rescued, Catherine, I bonded with her for 6 years.
Victoria: Catherine!?
Jacqueline: Catherine! I remember Catherine because I couldn’t get close to the cats. My dad had one who was rescued before I was born, and I couldn’t get close to her. She was rescued, had babies, was released, and was fine. But the cats I could not, sometimes if you touched them and got close, by the time you released them in the wild, they might not be able to survive. But with Catherine, it was like this *crosses fingers.* She taught me how to climb trees, she taught me how to eat bananas with my toes. I mean, oh my God, it was just this bond. She taught me to just be- you know? So that was my childhood, my whole life in Africa.
Victoria: I mean it just seems so fated. If you read- I mean you’ve obviously read Joe Pilates’ books- but we know his history, too. He would sit in the woods for hours watching animals move. That was a lot of the inspiration for how he created his movement, his method- Contrology- in the first place. It’s very kismet in that sense that you were the attracted to Pilates, because it’s very similar- it’s a similar inspiration for movement.
Jacqueline: It’s funny that you say that, because when I got into the work with Jay [Grimes], I wanted to impress him so much, and I wanted to be perfect. I was the fittest, most fine-tuned athlete. I wanted to impress him: “Look at me Jay, look at me Jay!” And one day he says: “Jacqueline, swing in the branches with Catherine!” He remembered because I had told him the story. He said: “Be with her! Swing off your rings that you had- just be wild!” And he was right! He was absolutely right. So yes, with the wild cats- I had big cats and little cats! So movement is really big. And with movement over the years, I lost that because I became a body-builder, I became a professional athlete- so over time, I became too into the sport and lost touch of my body. So it’s really interesting, because it’s this whole area most people don’t even think about it.
Victoria: What were you professionally?
Jacqueline: I was professionally involved with triathlons and Ironmans, for ten years.
Victoria: Wow, that’s amazing!
Jacqueline: Before that, I was a body-builder. What happened was, we had 24 hours to leave Africa, if we had not- I probably would still be there- I don’t know- maybe not, who knows. But we had 24 hours to leave, because part of what happened was my dad was again wanting the whole world to get together- that’s off-topic, but anyways- for Caterpillar, he was bringing in the Africans, and the thing is, the white side didn’t want that. But my dad believed in equality- we are all the same. It was getting close to 2-o-clock in the morning, and they said he had 24 hours to leave. I left with my one suitcase, and all of the animals were released.
Victoria: Catherine!?
Jacqueline: She actually was released and she had babies! When we went to visit, she brought her whole family.
Victoria: Oh my God, that’s unreal! She remembered!
Jacqueline: Yes, I just…I mean [at a loss for words]. So everybody was good and we left and I looked at the house when we left. So we went to France, and from France I moved to Vancouver. From Vancouver, I moved to Vancouver-Allen, where I lived, I married, divorced, had a long-time relationship. I was actually going to be a nurse, but I decided that I couldn’t be a nurse because I would be so stressed that I would start smoking and drinking alcohol. I couldn’t handle that. But I did get my degree in medicine. I wanted to be an emergency nurse- but my personality at the time- a AAA personality? It just doesn’t work. So, I became a fitness trainer and swim instructor.
Victoria: Okay- that seems like a better fit!
Jacqueline: I was teaching like 35 fitness classes a week. In the 80s, I was Jane Fonda- full-blown. Looking back, I probably killed a few of my clients. In a 6am class, I’d say: “Let’s forget about the warm-up and just go on a run!” Then we’d come back and we would probably do about 2,000 crunches. I know the fitness industry- I’ve been there, I’ve done all of this.
One day I went to the movies with my ex and we saw Terminator. I’m sitting there watching Linda Hamilton doing those pull-ups in jail, and I went: “I want those biceps.” The next day, I signed up for the gym. That’s how I started lifting weights and became a body-builder- because I wanted to look just like her.
Victoria: Wow! That’s so impressive.
Jacqueline: I did it! I was just so ripped. When I competed for three years, I was 6% body fat and 124 pounds.
Victoria: Wow, I think I’m like 21% body fat- easily. *laughs*
Jacqueline: Yeah, it’s not a healthy sport- it’s not. And that’s why I quit, because it’s not healthy, and because we had to take drugs, and I wasn’t about to be taking drugs- so I quit.
Victoria: That’s why you didn’t become a nurse!
Jacqueline: I studied nursing and became a trainer instead, and then into body-building. When I quit body-building- I always swam. I always swam, I always biked, and I always ran- like in high school- and I thought, I’d like to start running. So I ran. I did two marathons, and I thought: “It’s so hard on the body to do just one sport- I’m going to try a triathlon!” That was it.
Victoria: More cross training.
Jacqueline: Yes- more cross training. It was just so much better for my body. It was interesting, because I ran my best marathon in an Ironman than on its own. Figure that one out.
Victoria: Interesting! Wow! It makes sense to me though- it does. You have other muscle groups that are working to aid you in your running, so it makes sense to me. At what point did you introduce Pilates to your workout regimen?
Jacqueline: Throughout my career I had some injuries- I had a popliteal tear, and I had a meniscus tear. At the time, I was swimming with a swim team- I was swimming with the kids- and my the coach at the time, who is now my best friend, said to me: “You need to start taking Pilates.” She knew that I was very close to retiring. There was so much that I was able to do, but so much that I was not able to do. So much of it was not just part of the injury, but also nutrition. I had to eat 6,000 calories a day. I’ve studied nutrition, I know nutrition- my friend Bev, the coach, she knew me like nobody else. So she basically became my triathlete coach, not just my swim coach. And she’s the one who said: “You need to start doing Pilates. Not yoga, not anything else- Pilates.” She foresaw what would happen past racing. She saw in me- I didn’t know at the time- but she saw in me that I would become a Pilates teacher. So I started training in Victoria [British Columbia], and then I started teaching Pilates to the kids who were part of the swim team. It was really interesting, because they all loved it. And actually, I ended up not having surgery. I was supposed to have surgery six months after, and I did not! The popliteal tear healed, and my meniscus? Never again!
Victoria: That’s insane!
Jacqueline: So I thought- and I was basic at first, I was Stott. So I thought: “That’s just with Stott!” I thought: “I want more.” So I had my studio for 6 years in Vancouver on Ladysmith- it was the first one on the island, and I was teaching really more by intuition than anything- and movement. The Stott was not for me- we weren’t together. So I taught out of my own instinct. With Jay, when I got into the Work, I realized: “Wow, yes!” It really, really is what I was looking for. I studied as well with the Boulder program- with Amy and Rachel- through Noam Gagnon, in Vancouver- we’re very close. But again, there was something more. I knew there was something more. I basically- before I met Jay- I actually pulled my whole back out. I was helping a client, and my whole right side strained and pulled. Again, through my training, I became too flexible, and I had lost moving. So all of my Pilates healed me from my injuries, but I didn’t know how to move. My friend Bev, who was my swim coach, became my mentor- she’s still my mentor and became my best friend. She was with me when that happened- it was Canada Day, and I was on the couch. I said: “I need to work with an elder” and she said: “Look on the Internet!” So I was looking at all of them, and Jay, when he spoke about sculpture, and the rock, I said: “I want to work with him.” I looked at Bev and said: “How do I do that?” And she said: “Pick up the phone and call Vintage!” It was so funny how one thing led to the other.
Victoria: Yeah! I’ve heard amazing things about the program with Jay at Vintage. I’ve had a handful of instructors that have gone through that program on my Mat & Chat as well. I would say the biggest difference that I see when I work with people that have gone through Jay’s program is how good they are at staying quiet. They only talk when they need to correct or offer support. I think there’s so many different styles of teaching, of course. But I find that I speak more. After working with a number of instructors who have been through “The Work”, I’ve been inspired to try and speak less. I’m pulling back and really only trying to correct and give cues when needed, and learn to be comfortable in silence, which I think is really awkward when you’re first experimenting with that. But I think Jay wanted his people to be purposeful with what they say, and only really speak when there’s meaning.
Jacqueline: He gave me a few words of wisdom and one of the first things he said when we started moving was: “Shut your mouth. Shut up.” So I did. But the thing is- I didn’t stay there. Jay gives you the start- he doesn’t give you any more than that- you have to figure that out. It really wasn’t until COVID that I figured out what I want.
Victoria: Interesting. What do you think about COVID changed that?
Jacqueline: Talking less is for you to watch the body. But I watched bodies for years- I didn’t see the body not moving, because I was so into the exercise, I was so into what I had learned of the classical work, that I got caught in the same thing as I did before. You can ask me to move- I was doing everything in the studio- candlestick, handstand, I could do anything. Every teacher worked with me and went: “Yeah! We can play with her.” But that didn’t change my pattern- I got worse.
Victoria: Interesting- because you were just going through the motions at that point. You were like: “I can do it”, so you would just throw yourself into it.
Jacqueline: I ran on autopilot. Eve Gentry said: “You might know all of the exercises in Pilates- you might know every single thing- and you still don’t know Pilates.” That’s what I was- until COVID. That’s not just talking about it, it’s going through my own experience in my body. I was broken- I was broken. And not only broken, I also had a car accident in 2018- not me driving, but I didn’t have my back seatbelt on, and the driver went from here to here *motions* and if it wasn’t for the car seat, I would be dead. That, and when I talked to Bev, I didn’t realize that I could have been dead. The thing is I went straight into the other door and I basically went sideways and if it wasn’t for the car seat, I would have broken my neck. Pilates saved me. Pilates work saved me. But- I was so tight and so stiff that it made everything shift. So that’s actually the start of really understanding what Pilates was. That was like: “Whoa.” I didn’t know. I studied Joseph, I went into how he worked and what he was about, and all of the similarities with growing up with the animals, and moving! “Oh, wait a minute.” And that was it for me. That is the essence. And you can dazzle me with exercises- I’m not interested.
Victoria: I agree. I feel sometimes doing exercises is not the same as understanding how to do the exercises. And that make a big difference. When you find and are able to differentiate between the two- that’s when the real work comes in. Airplane for example, on the Cadillac- a lot of people figure out how to cheat their way through it, but it’s different to be purposeful and find the pieces of the exercise, what you’re doing, and why it’s working. I think you can say that about every exercise.
You mentioned that you went back and tried to go back and figure out what Joseph Pilates meant- what you wrote, and what he said. Speaking of that, Jordan [Beinhorn], one of your biggest fans, submitted a question for me to ask you. She wants to know: “If you could speak to Joe Pilates, what would you ask him?”
Jacqueline: That’s a good question, Jordan.
Victoria: *laughs* I thought so too.
Jacqueline: I would ask him: “What was your drive to continuously go back to foundations? What was taken all of your time?” He lived upstairs from the studio, so he was in the studio all the time. That’s why I love having my equipment at home- I would never have it any other way. What was beneath all of this? I feel there was so much that he wanted to do and keep going- he died too soon, too young. The consummation, the drive- because I have that. I’ve had that since COVID, and it’s like what keeps you going like this? What kept him going like that?
Victoria: I think a part of him- I mean, obviously this is all an inference- who knows, I don’t know if anyone really knew Joe- but I think it was his desire to prove people wrong. You mentioned Eve Gentry. When she had her double mastectomy and he rehabilitated her with the ped-o-pull, he brought her in front of a panel of doctors in Manhattan and they were shocked. How is it possible that she has this much strength after such an intense surgery? The story has always stuck with me. After they saw what he had done with her, they were very enthusiastic about bringing his method on board and using that to rehabilitate their patients. But then, they found out that he didn’t have any medical background and once they discovered that, they were like: “Oh, forget it. We can’t have anything to do with you- you don’t have any of the education on paper that we require.” I don’t know what book comes after that situation- I’m forgetting in the moment- but the tone of that next publication, that next book- it’s angry. He’s back, and he’s there to prove a point. It sounds very resentful and I think that that resentment powered his method. I think that goes to show, some of the best work comes when you’ve been knocked down. You stand back up and work even harder. I mean, he was a genius, but it was interesting to see how he would take one step back and then ten steps forward. I think that’s a great comeback story, too.
Jacqueline: It brings the drive and the fire. With all of this COVID last year, everybody was like: “What’s going to happen? Oh poor me, poor this.” Very negative. I just sat in my apartment and stayed in Poland and did what I needed to do.
Victoria: Yes, it was a reset for many people.
Jacqueline: I sat, I didn’t get distracted. I mean, in Poland? There’s no going shopping!
Victoria: I can shop here, but what’s the point? Where am I going? Am I shopping to sit on my couch?
Jacqueline: Everything was closed, the pool. One thing I missed for a while was the pool and the sauna. I made the best out of it and made my own pool and my own sauna with my own practice and my own curiosity to dive deeper into the method. I didn’t get distracted by anything. I was just like: “You know what? This is really the best place to be.” My inspiration is Nelson Mandela. He spent seven years in jail and he was mad and angry at first- mad, mad mad! Just like Joe. But he thought: “You know what? Time to change.” Anger and stress will only cause diseases and death. And more wars in the world. To me, I became so peaceful with who I was as well. Part of being challenged during those times, being alone in a country that I do not speak the language- everything is so much harder here. People think I’m having a great life. I am having a great life with me, but for me, Poland is not where I want to live. And I’m being honest- I am always being honest. I am so honest, and I know some people don’t like it. And that’s okay!
Victoria: I deal with that all the time- don’t worry!
Jacqueline: You know what? Winston Churchill said: “If you have enemies- you’re doing good things” because you know what? You’re not for everybody, and you’re never going to be for everybody. You can have whoever you want. I always spoke the truth, and the thing is, I stayed here for my own work first. Also for my Polish teachers. When I do a teacher training, I don’t go: “Oh! You’re done! See ya!” No. I nurture the ones that want to continue working with me- I will. I don’t just dump them and move on. That’s not who I am. And the thing is, I can go back to Canada- but I thought: “You know what, I’m going to stay here and just really get into this work.” Like nobody else is. I wrote to Jay a couple of times, and I didn’t tell him everything, but I did tell him what I was doing, and he was like: “Yup. You’re brave.” Again, in that situation, when I’m alone, it challenges me in all of the things that have challenged me in the past.
Jacqueline’s Speed Round:
City or beach
Sweet or savory?
Cat or dog?
Adventure or comfort?
Books or movies?
Nights in or nights out?
Summer or winter?
Tea or coffee?
Early bird or night owl?
Pizza or pasta?
Europe or Asia?
Spring or fall?
Breakfast or dinner?