This Mat & Chat was hosted on on Instagram Live on Saturday, October 3rd. The chat followed a 25 minute mat workout.*
Victoria: I wanted to get started today with you talking to us about Pilates at Goucher. We’ll talk about the program you have there, and from there I’m sure we’ll find opportunities to talk about how you got there, Romana, and whatever. We’ll see where the road takes us. So go ahead and take it away!
Elizabeth: Yeah! So, my journey to Pilates probably more officially began when I was in school at SUNY Purchase. Romana was a teacher at SUNY Purchase in the 90s, when I was there. Steve Giordano and Romana taught mat classes and that’s where I started taking some apparatus classes and mat classes, and where I actually came into contact with Romana. I left Purchase, finished my graduate work at NYU, went to Seattle, Washington to teach at the University of Washington, and at that time I found that a lot of our dancers were coming in to our program injured- they had lots of injuries. I had never had an injury as a dancer, and I think much of it was because of the Pilates work I had done as a young dancer.
When I got hired at Goucher, I decided I would return back to Romana. She had just started a certification program, so I decided to get certified and hopefully bring that information to the students here at Goucher. So I did so- when got certified, I actually asked Romana- you know, after reading Return to Life and so many of these articles that Joe had written, he talks so much about Pilates and education, and I thought- there weren’t a lot of programs, or any that I knew at that time, that had Pilates as a piece of their education. So I got my certification, opened my own studio out of my house, started teaching a couple of academic classes at Goucher. They were packed; there was always a waiting list for the classes. It was too much for me to try to have my small business out of my home, so I went to the Dean and I said: “Would you be intrigued with me bringing my whole program to Goucher?” And it would actually be under their umbrella- I would just manage it. Then our students wouldn’t have to leave campus to come to me, they would have everything on campus- they could take their academic classes. The dream was for it to be open to everyone in the Baltimore area- the entire community, not just the students at Goucher.
The Dean said: “That sounds fabulous, it’s interesting, it’s innovative, it’s entrepreneurial, we have never heard of it!” And I talked to Romana, and she thought it was fabulous and we took over this space. It used to be a small, little dance studio that we used for academic classes, where students could kind of warm up- we took it over. Romana helped me get all of the equipment via Gratz. She told me I had to have mats with a roll on it- she was very adamant about what had to be in here. We opened our doors in 1997!
Victoria: Wow, congratulations! That’s over 20 years- that’s incredible! Wow, okay! So there’s a lot to unpack there and there are a lot of things to go back to that I would like to bring up. This is a question that we actually didn’t talk about yesterday, but I wrote it down as I was going through what I wanted to chat with you about. I’ve spoken to this before with other Mat & Chat guests, but there’s a certain era- if you will- of instructors who all came to Pilates through dance. That wasn’t my journey through Pilates- I mean, I took ballet when I was 5 and hated it. I tap danced, actually, until I was 15- which is kind of cool, but 100% useless. I do think, obviously we all know the history of Pilates- what it was created for, what it turned in to, and what it is now. So, my question though- you mention that so many of your dancers were coming to Seattle with injuries- but, when it comes to Goucher and your program there: for these college freshmen who are 18 or so- what percentage would you say have actually done Pilates in the past as a complement to their ballet? Is that something that’s very normal for people to be doing as they are growing up in a ballet world?
Elizabeth: Yeah, not as much as I would think or I would hope. It’s interesting because my ballet teacher studied with Joe and was Romana’s roommate- and that’s a whole other story. I didn’t know it until after I met Romana.
Victoria: Whaaat?! That’s so cool!
Elizabeth: Yeah, so I had done some Pilates exercise but I didn’t know it was Pilates. It was just some man from Germany who she studied with. So when I took sessions with Romana, I was like: “Oh! These are a little familiar!” I had never done any of the equipment- just some of the mat work- but the students certainly in Seattle at the University of Washington and here at Goucher, very few have had classes. If they have, it’s been kind of a Master class at workshop, or a camp, or a summer program where they took some Pilates classes. Certainly, if anything, it’s probably mat work. Of course, not knowing what the lineage of the classes is.
Here at Goucher, they can take apparatus classes for academic credit, they can take mat classes for academic credit, and they don’t have to be dancers. I’m teaching a mat class this semester, all via Zoom (because of Covid) and I would say only 4 out of the 16 people in the class are dancers.
Victoria: That’s amazing!
Elizabeth: Yeah! It’s just students who just want to try something different. They want to be healthy, they’ve read about Pilates, they’ve heard about it on campus from our dancers, and they think it would be beneficial. All of them are loving it and learning it for the first time on Zoom, which has been interesting, right? Having an inexperienced person on Zoom. So no, they haven’t had a lot of experience with it, and many of them haven’t even heard of it.
Victoria: Is it a requirement for your dancers to do Pilates at Goucher?
Elizabeth: It is not, but the students have electives, and Pilates is a way they can fill the elective requirement with. Like I said, the class usually fills within minutes of when registration opens because I only take 6 people in my apparatus class, and I’ll take up to 20 in my mat class. Both of those classes are usually at capacity very quickly- they are very desirable classes.
Victoria: If I had been able to take Pilates classes in undergrad, I would have taken it every single semester for four years. I didn’t really even know what it was, but that’s an incredible opportunity for these students.
Elizabeth: And many of them that do take these classes, especially the dancers, they go on to take the second level. I have two levels of my apparatus class, so many of them will take the second level. And then many of them go on to get certified. They get excited enough about it that they continue to work with our instructors privately and they go to Romana’s Pilates- that’s where we encourage our students to go- and they obtain their teaching certification. So it’s exciting!
Victoria: Cool! So you mentioned that Romana helped you to open the studio. I assume that means that she came to Goucher, saw the space- is that correct?
Elizabeth: So I brought diagrams to New York. She was working at Drago’s, and I would sit at Drago’s and show her the diagrams, we’d walk through the space, what equipment I needed and how she thought the equipment should be laid out. For example, when I was trying to decide my wall units and the higher mats, I was going to get plain mats. She was very adamant that I needed to get the ones with the roll. She kind of helped me map that out. She did come to Goucher several times after we opened, which was fabulous. All of our students got to engage and take master classes with her. She didn’t come until after we opened. She had the blueprints, we walked through it, she made sure that the equipment was bought via Gratz- that was important to her. Then I walked through my descriptions of my academic classes, my mat classes- she was very much in the know.
When we decided to open our classes to the public and have open classes and privates, she was there to figure out how to market the classes and describe them. You know, what would be a level 1, a level 2, a level 3, a level 4, a level 5, a level 6- we have 6 levels here. I certainly ran all of those ideas by her. Again, there wasn’t anything like it- certainly not at a college- and the information I was able to glean from her and her suggestions were really important to me in opening the studio.
Victoria: So obviously Romana had a big hand in it. Yesterday when we spoke on the phone, you said it was very important for you to keep it classical, for multiple reasons, but also considering it’s respecting what you learned from Romana. Do you want to talk to that a little bit further? Or why you stick to the classical system?
Elizabeth: Sure! So, again, that’s the program that I went through. It was The Pilates Studio at that time- it wasn’t Romana’s Pilates, it was The Pilates Studio, and then it became Romana’s Pilates- she opened her own certification program. Educationally, I thought it was very important that all teachers came from the same point of view, so that all of our clients and all of our students would be getting the same information, the same sequencing- set in a different way; we’re all individual teachers, obviously, but coming from the same training system. I thought that was very important. The first person I hired in 1998, the first full-time hire I hired here, came from Romana. After that, it was all either students that we certified, that we put through the system- we have scholarships here for students that we give to students that we put help through the certification system with Romana- so, they’re either scholarship students who I’ve identified as gifted- they have the ability to convey what they’ve learned and I think they’re going to be good teachers, and are excited about the system. So every one of those teachers have either come from us- Goucher students- or they have applied for the position having come from Romana, whether it’s back as far as myself at The Pilates Studio, or a newer current Romana’s Pilates certified teacher.
Victoria: How many instructors do you have working there?
Elizabeth: We have 8 to 9 including several part-time people. We go between 8-9 full-time instructors. Stephanie Lawson is the current director of the program and she’s full time. She is a level 4 Pilates instructor. We have a couple who have only been with us two years- they’re alums. Another instructor who went through quite some time ago- Susan Hankinson- after I did, but a while ago like me- who is also from Oklahoma like I am.
Victoria: I was going to ask you yesterday where you were from when we spoke on the phone, because I was like- this is not a Maryland accent, but I didn’t know where it was from. I actually assumed it was more southern than Midwest, but cool!
Elizabeth: Yeah, Midwest! Susan and I are both from Oklahoma and we reconnected at a continuing education course. We had just put an ad out for an instructor, and I said: “You should apply- you’d be great!” So we reconnected after years and years- it had been 20 years since we had seen each other, at least. It’s a small world. My ballet teacher in Oklahoma- Yvonne Chouteau- who is one of the 5 Native American ballerinas- she was a roommate of Romana’s in New York. When Romana heard that, I think that was another thing that kind of connected us- my teacher was a very good friend of hers, so that was a special bond that we had.
Victoria: Do you have one specific story or memory of Romana that you want to share with us? I know it’s putting you on the spot!
Elizabeth: Yeah! That’s a hard one. There are so many stories in the studio, you know. Her working with Mr. Glick or particular clients. I remember one time hearing her- and I only speak French or English, so I didn’t always know what she was saying- but her clearly using an expletive because there was someone on a reformer at Drago’s way down. She was teaching a client and there was an apprentice on a reformer and somehow she was able- from the sound of the machine- she knew that that student had made a poor transition. And she was like *makes noises*- it was almost like she had eyes in the back of her head. It was amazing! Really, she could hear equipment, she knew if your transition was poor, and she had her full attention on her student but she knew what was happening in the rest of the studio. Whether the instructors were teaching or the apprentices were teaching someone else- she had her eyes on everyone, which is pretty amazing that she could multitask like that.
Her demeanor, her upside-down on the Cadillac doing the splits, champagne on Fridays, stories we’ve all heard about that are meaningful and they are traditions we try to replicate in our studios. When Romana came, a couple times to Goucher, I went to the liquor store and got cases of Veuve Clicquot. I had to have the right champagne! I remember my husband saying: “Why do you need that champagne?” I was like- we have to have this particular champagne! But it was those stories- her enthusiasm- it’s something that still resonates with me and resonates with every single student that walked in her studio or took a class with her. Whether it was one class or years of training, her residue is left on us forever- which is why she’s so impactful.
Victoria: So you trained with Romana in 1993. That’s almost 30 years ago. There are many schools of thought when it comes to Pilates. I think one of the biggest arguments when it comes to a more contemporary approach is that classical is limited, and there are only X amount of exercises, you just do them over and over, it gets boring, blah blah blah. Obviously I disagree with that sentiment. I’ve only been teaching for just under 5 years, and you’ve been practicing and teaching for close to 30. I have had people on my Mat & Chat with similar experience to you- they’ve been teaching for decades and decades, and nobody gets bored. What would you say in response to that? What makes Pilates new for you? How have you been able to be so engaged in the system for so long?
Elizabeth: Well first of all, the system works. The way I look at it is: why mess with something that works? What other people teach might work also, but I know this works and it’s worked for me. It’s kept my body safe- I’ve used it through two pregnancies, through knee injuries, through rotator cuffs, through biopsies- breast biopsies. My own body has gone though things and it has adapted to my personal body through each of those stages. I’m confident that it’s going to continue to do so. The extent of the training program- it’s a long apprenticeship, it’s a long training program- you leave there thinking you’re ready to teach and you’re not- it’s lifelong learning.
Victoria: I know! The second you leave that program- it’s the least you’ll ever know, right?
Elizabeth: Yes. It gives you the tools- and because you go to these continuing education classes and because you’re learning regularly from your fellow instructors, etc., that I feel like you’re never at a place where you’ve hit your ultimate. You’re never done. I think that’s why dancers are drawn to it, because you’re never done with dance either. So it works- I’ve seen it work on my own body and the bodies that I saw when I was an apprentice. The bodies I’ve seen over the course of all of these years- I’ve had clients with me since I started teaching.
Victoria: Really?
Elizabeth: Oh, yeah! So seeing their bodies change and seeing how the system can be adapted- you use what Joe talks about- your intuition as a teacher. You know the system inside and out- you have the skills and ability to adapt it. Because of that, I don’t find it boring. I don’t find that clients find it boring. With the equipment that we have at your disposal- the cadillac, the reformer, all of the other pieces of apparatus- I’ve never been bored. Again, I don’t think any of our clients have ever been bored. They continue to come back- 10 years, 20 years, 25 years! They keep coming back
Victoria: Yeah, at Real Pilates in New York City- I mean I’ve only been there since 2015, but there are clients that I’ll start working with because maybe their instructor had a baby or something, and I’ll ask: “Oh, how long have you been coming here?” And they’re like: “Oh, I don’t know, back when Alycea [Ungaro] did this.” And I’m like that’s a long time ago! Some of these people have been coming to Real Pilates for decades as well. I agree you with. I never feel done. You could see it in my open leg rocker, my side leg kicks. It’s impossible to think that you’re done. And then when you think you’re done- side kicks for example- you’re like: “Okay, now we’re going to kneel and do the same exact thing!” There’s always a next level, a new modification or advancement, and that’s what keeps me invested as well.
I think our time during Covid has truly showed how engaging the classical system is. We’ve stuck to mat work- of all things- for 6 to 7 months! I think we were all at first like: “Ahhh!!” I mean, you must teach on actual Pilates mats with your 20 students. But in most studios, during a tower/mat class, maybe you’ll do some mat work for the beginning but then you’re incorporating leg springs, arm springs. To go back to the mat was very intimidating at first. I felt like I would never be creative enough or be able to pull enough ideas out of my head to keep it new every week, or three times a week, or whatever it was- but here I am like: “Oh my God!” I’m still surprised with how I’m able to keep it fresh and new for clients who are coming to see me twice a week still.
Elizabeth: Yes, and I think the fact that it just confirms that the mat is kind of the skeleton of the work, right? It’s confirmed it for us. To me, these other pieces of equipment are like the cheesecake and the extra. They’re fabulous, but they’re really the foundation. The skeleton is in that mat. Actually, the mat is the hardest! It’s you!
Victoria: You can’t cheat. It’s very obvious if you have a weakness if it’s just you and a mat. I found that for me, all of this matwork- and granted, I’m here in a studio and I’ve had access to the apparatus for almost the entire time- but regardless, being able to bring it back to the studio, I’m like: “Okay, now let’s go to the reformer” and I’m seeing how what they’ve been working on the mat has translated to helping them achieve exercises on apparatus that they’ve been off of for 6 months. It’s pretty remarkable how it’s made big changes in people’s bodies in not that long of a period of time.
Elizabeth: I think we’re going to see that fact when we get clients back in the studios, and that’s really going to confirm it for the clients- what advancements they’ve made using the mat. How much they’ve advanced and how their practice will have improved as a result.
Victoria: Yeah, and then you can really see the system at work. I know a lot of people who start their journeys with juts a classical mat certification- you know, March Matness is a huge thing within the Pilates community. I really feel though that if you stop at the mat, you’re missing it. It’s a system for a reason, and being able to realize- lately I keep teaching: “This is like elephant!” and I never used to see it before. I’m teaching down stretch and realizing it’s like pull straps. Everything is connected and it’s very important to get the full picture in order to really understand how genius the system is.
Elizabeth: It is, and he was 50 years ahead of his time. He was just so ahead of his time. So again, that’s why I’m not going to mess with it and teach what he created as best as I can.
*Though we did not have time to discuss her published accolades in our chat, Elizabeth is a published author in multiple scientific journals. A few of her titles include:
“Some Effects of Supplemental Pilates Training on the Posture, Strength, and Flexibility of Dancers Aged 17-22 Years” Journal of Dance, Medicine, and Science Volume 22, Number 4, 2018.
Voices of Classical Pilates. Editors: Peter Fiasca, Amy Bergensen, and Suzanne Diffine. Contributed chapter entitled “Pilates: Its Place in Education.” ISBN: 978-0-615-67238-0
“The Pilates Method and Ballet Technique – Applications in the Dance Studio.” Journal of Dance Education, Volume 6, Number 3. September 2006.
Elizabeth’s Speed Round
City or beach
Sweet or savory?
Cat or dog?
Adventure or comfort?
Books or movies?
Nights in or nights out?
Summer or winter?
Tea or coffee?
Early bird or night owl?
Pizza or pasta? Neither- I’m not a carb person.
Europe or Asia?
Spring or fall?
Breakfast or dinner?