This Mat & Chat was hosted on Saturday, May 2nd, 2020 on Instagram Live. The chat followed a 25 minute mat workout.
Victoria: Just to reintroduce here, in case somebody tuned in late, I am Victoria, and I am here with Susannah and Sam Cotrone of Cotrone Pilates out in Los Angeles. I always ask people to submit questions, and I think this question might be a good kickoff because I think it’s going to answer a lot! So, I’m going to start with this one even though it might not seem Pilates related, because I think it’s going to relate back to Pilates. I got this question from multiple people, and they want to know how you two met!
Susannah: *laughs* Oh my God.
Sam: That’s always the start. We’re both former ballet dancers, so that’s our background. Believe it or not, we didn’t meet in ballet- because everybody thinks that we did.
Susannah: But we did.
Sam: But I don’t remember. But I’m older.
Susannah: “But I’m older”??
Sam: I just don’t remember.
Susannah: Listen, we took ballet class together, there’s a lot of girls and a few guys. I noticed him, maybe not because he was so spectacular-
Sam: Wow, thank you.
Susannah: …but because there were like, maybe three guys.
Sam: “Not so spectacular”?
Victoria: How old were you?
Sam: How old were we? I was in my 30s.
Susannah: I was in my 20s. We’re 12 years apart.
Sam: 11.
Susannah: 11.
Sam: So we met at Winsor. I was working behind the desk, and she came in for an interview with Mari, and she got the job.
Susannah: Should I tell the story?
Victoria: You need to tell the story.
Sam: Go ahead.
Susannah: He was already there, he was already working there.
Sam: She has been there, and then she started working there.
Susannah: It was really important to me that I get the job. Now, “the job” wasn’t like, show up and you’re going to teach. It was like- I did this interview with Mari, and she goes: “You have a great smile- I’ll hire you.” And I was like: “Great, because all I brought was my dance resume.” So I was feeling so great, really great. And he was there, smoking-
Sam: Not anymore.
Susannah: Not anymore, we’re all cleaned up now. And I looked at him, and I go: “Well, I guess you’ll have to say hi to me now.”
Victoria: Ohhhh, girl!!
Sam: I had no idea what that meant.
Susannah: He thought I was crazy, you know? But that’s the story.
Sam: Yeah, so anyway- we started dating, and then we got married! And we have three kids, and they’re all doing very well and we’re very proud of all three of them.
Victoria: How old are your children?
Susannah: That’s a good….I think- I can’t do the quick math. 24-
Sam: That’s Amanda, she’s in Montana.
Susannah: In Missoula. And then there’s Dean, who is 20, and he goes to San Francisco State University. And then there’s Isabella, who is 15, and she’s going to be joining the San Francisco Ballet School in the fall.
Victoria: Oh my gosh, wow! Is your oldest a dancer too?
Sam: No.
Susannah: I made everybody dance, it just didn’t stick with everybody.
Sam: Bella is the only one.
Victoria: Cool, that’s incredible. And I assume she does Pilates?
Susannah: Who, Isabella? She does, but you know- they all did Pilates. Pilates was always in their life. So inevitably, they would need to reject it, and then come back to it. And that’s sort of what we’ve seen.
Victoria: Right. I mean, anything parents do can’t be cool, right? Okay so that was the first question, but it answered a lot of other questions, as I hoped it would. Let’s unpack some of what you said and go back to Mari, Mari Winsor, who unfortunately passed away the other day. I’d like you to tell me what led you both to Mari in the first place and also what you learned from her that you still bring forward with you in your teaching today.
Susannah: I know exactly how. I danced for a ballet company called Francisco Martinez Dance Theatre, and I danced with a gentleman named Roger Gonzalez- super tall and very nice. I was explaining to him that I was having the need for a job, because life dictated that and dancing wasn’t covering that, at that point. Dancing in Los Angeles, having a child, all of this. So he said: “Well, I heard that Mari is opening a second studio,” and I didn’t even know who Mari was at that point, but I was like: “Okay, good to know.” At this time, I didn’t have a cell phone; I didn’t have anything to connect with Roger, except for when we were at rehearsal. All I know is I was driving up La Cienega, and I saw him, and I laid on my horn, made him pull over at Santa Monica and La Cienega, and said: “Hey, where is that studio? Because I need to go find out if I can get a job there” and he was like: “Oh, yeah, okay!” and that’s how I went to go in to teach there, but I was being groomed to go teach on the west side.
Sam: My story is I was dancing at the Royal Winnipeg Ballet, retired, left, came over to Los Angeles. My friend Vince was already here- we’re both from Toronto, both danced at Winnipeg- and he came here before me and he was already working at Mari’s. So this was long ago, 1991, and I just came here and started waiting tables. In 1998, I finally had enough of that, and I was working at the best restaurants in LA, but I said: “Vince, I think I’m gonna go and talk with Mari.” So he said fine, I went in and talked to Mari, and she liked me- she already knew me from before because I used to go in and out. She hired me, the Italian guy, and the rest was just all that. A week and a half later, I’m on the floor teaching.
Victoria: But where did you learn to teach?
Sam: Mari taught us. Everyone that was there, they all taught us what they knew at that time, which was sort of like a mish-mash, but then Romana came in.
Susannah: My story is a little different, because I had done Pilates before, which is why I thought I might actually be qualified to teach it. The Pilates that I learned when I got to Mari’s- I had to learn Mari’s Pilates, which wasn’t the Pilates that I knew.
Victoria: What was the Pilates you knew?
Susannah: I had done more of a classically-based, strong mat through the Houston Ballet School. It was my first exposure, and I had these mat pamphlets and these weights- I was really obsessive.
Sam: But then Mari brought in Romana and she had us all certified. She was the one that made sure we all started doing it classical, Duarte, so many people were coming in-
Susannah: It was crazy, and the Balanced Body equipment was going out, and the Gratz was coming in, and clients were like: “This hurts!”
Sam: All that credit goes to Mari- she did all of that.
Victoria: So were you both there together during the Romana takeover?
Susannah: Oh yes. That was when Romana asked us to go to New York, and I said: “Sam, I really want to go to New York. I think this could be really important. We can train there instead of her coming here.” She asked us specifically, but he was like: “No.”
Sam: No.
Victoria: Do you ever regret that?
Susannah: Every day. He shakes his head. It wasn’t feasible.
Sam: We had kids- where were we going?
Susannah: We were broke dancers with kids. I mean, we’re not crazy.
Sam: I had lived in New York already, before.
Susannah: Oh, Mister “I already lived there.”
Sam: I’m not going back! I loved New York, but I’m not going back. It’s too cold.
Victoria: You guys were in New York this fall, I saw you at the Teasers for Tatas event [at Real Pilates].
Susannah: Yes, Bella was invited to go to a Don Quixote workshop at the American Ballet Theatre.
Victoria: Great! So you had a reason to be there. So, you were both fortunate to work with both Mari and Romana, not a lot of people got both.
Susannah: And Jay!
Sam: And Jay Grimes
Victoria: Talk to us about Jay! Anything you want to say about Jay?
Susannah: Love him, love him! He’s the greatest! I have something to say about Jay. I worked with Peter Fiasca at Winsor West, and I was excited to do a private with him, and he put me on the Wunda chair and made me to the hundred on the short edge, and I couldn’t do it. And he goes: “You have no powerhouse. You need to work with Jay.” And I was like: “Oh, shit.” And I thought about that, and the truth is, I had probably been dancing my way through Pilates for a really long time; you know, leveraging flexibility, who knows- so I went to work with Jay, and Jay was like: “I think we can only do 30 minutes.” He just wanted to focus on that one thing. I was just really weak in my full body, it might have been nutrition, there could have been other things going on- but he was just so good at working with me. I worked with people that are so good at teaching me what Pilates is, and then I worked with people that are good at making Pilates great for me, and I think- that’s magical, when you work with somebody and they can gear it towards what you need.
Victoria: You know, Juan [Estrada] said something similar in his history of Pilates as a dancer. He said he went to his first Pilates class in college, which was called “Conditioning for Dancers” and he thought: “Oh, this will be simple.” He couldn’t even get through the hundred, couldn’t even keep his head up and he was thinking: “What the heck? I can jump, I can lunge, I can lift people, I can do this, I can do that,” but just like you said Susannah, I think because you (as a dancer) rely on flexibility, you think you can cheat your way through things, but then you really learn through Pilates what the powerhouse actually is and you’re like: “Oooh, okay. That’s what I’m supposed to be using. Those are the muscles I don’t have.”
Susannah: Yeah, I had finally become mature enough to be like, enough cheating myself.
Sam: Yeah, totally. I mean, Jay is great. I’ve been working with him for years, and we’ve always had a fun time working together, and he really got me right back into where I needed to be, in my body, and you know it’s just so nice to be with someone like that, to work with them, and get all of that knowledge and be able to use that with my clients. Romana, Jay, I mean- we’ve been so lucky of course to have so many wonderful people that have come into our lives with Pilates, from all over, and it’s been a blessing.
Susannah: They all have left such a tremendous impact on our lives.
Sam: I remember the one thing that Romana said to me during teacher training because I was getting all “Ugh” and this and that, and she said: “You know, one day you’ll be doing Pilates and someone will come in to you and you will look at them and you will take them through the routine, but you just won’t get through to them. And everything you’re giving them, everything you know about Pilates, just doesn’t seem to be getting through to them. What you’ll do, is you’ll come up with something. And as long as you are using the principles of Pilates, you’re doing Pilates.”
Victoria: I like that A LOT.
Sam: And that released me. The principles of Pilates are what it’s about, and she was explaining to me that you have to sometimes come up with something to help them get the exercise.
Susannah: That’s your imagination.
Sam: That’s what we do.
Victoria: Almost every time. It’s rare for someone to just be able to get into something exactly the way that you’re asking it, or as perfect as it should be. I find that I’m always describing things or creating visualizations, like: “Imagine this, imagine that” and that helps to get what I want.
Susannah: You know who was just so masterful, I had one of Brooke Siler’s books early on, and her drawings, I was like: “Oh yeah!” You know, you see something and it just help you understand exactly. Even if you don’t have that much creativity or imagination, you can see something and go: “Oh yeah, right!” You can see shapes, and it opens things up for you.
Sam: I can’t even walk down the street, or even driving in a car- I just see bodies and I go: “Oh my God, that poor lady! Oh my God, that poor guy!”
Susannah: Right, Victoria?
Sam: You can see the hurt and the pain!
Victoria: Not only that, I have people who had been in my life for decades, and then I became a Pilates instructor and I started looking at them differently, looking at their bodies differently. I was like: “Oh my God, how did I never realize that you’re so double-jointed or can hyperextend so much in your elbows! How did I not realize you were so kyphotic in your spine?” Some of these people were best friends, relatives, and I had spent many minutes, hours, and days with them, but as a Pilates instructor I’m looking at them through Pilates eyes.
Sam: We get invited to parties and people say: “Oh, please don’t correct our posture.”
Susannah: How about when a politician is speaking and I’m like, “What’s with the lean?” I don’t even know what he said.
Victoria: So you guys have your own Pilates studio, Cotrone Pilates. How long have you been open? Talk us through what it’s like to be studio owners.
Susannah: Seven years.
Sam: Since 2013
Susannah: Ah, Mari told us it was going to be horrible and that it was big mistake and that we shouldn’t open our own studio because it’s horribly hard, and it’s so funny because she was so right.
Victoria: *laughs*
Susannah: It’s a whole different deal to own a studio and be responsible for the space an the equipment, the people, and it’s whole new mindset. And I think if we hadn’t really been Pilates heart and soul, we certainly know zero about business. That and technology- I mean anybody would have said don’t do it. But we wanted to do it and I think there came a time when we had worked for someone for a while, and we wanted to take that responsibility and shoulder the burden, and it’s been a wonderful, wonderful growing experience for us.
Sam: You know, it’s a journey. You just move in.
Victoria: Totally, 1000%. I hope to own my own studio someday as well.
A lot of us know that California is a hotbed for contemporary Pilates; west coast is typically more contemporary than the east coast. But obviously you guys have explored both and you’re now fully with the classical method. So I wanted to know: for you, why not contemporary? And what do you think the difference is between the two.
Sam: Oh, that’s easy. You can easily see- when you do the work, Uncle Joe was a genius. You gotta give it to him. Stick with the work. Stick with the work and do classical, it makes a difference.
Susannah: You know, Victoria, I think it goes back to what I said- having been a dancer, I know when I’m dancing. Do you know what I’m saying? So if I’m dancing on the equipment, if I’m fooling around with the flexibility stuff, I know that it’s exercise, and it might be on equipment, and it could resemble an exercise, but if we knew that Pilates was a concept, and when we know that we are doing it and not doing it, then we know when we are doing Pilates. That’s very hard to explain to people, because it’s an experience, right? And it sounds like a lot of phoo-ey.
Sam: I mean, how can I help you with issues with your body if I’m not using classical Pilates and the training that I have? If I’m just doing contemporary Pilates and just giving you a bunch of different exercises, I’m not helping you, and that’s the difference. Nothing against contemporary Pilates, that’s great, it’s perfect, do what you enjoy.
Victoria: I think what you’re saying also goes back to that phrase that we discussed so much on Carrie [Russo’s] Mat & Chat: “Pilates is a system,” that’s why it works so well, because it’s systematic. We’re building A to B to Z and that’s why it’s so effective as a teaching and learning tool.
Susannah: 100%, I love that!
Sam: But I’ll tell you. Sometimes I will use the workouts the contemporary folk are doing- some of the workouts, I feel that some of it works!
Susannah: What?! No.
Victoria: * laughs* Uh oh! No, I’m just kidding. Personally, I’ve had to do physical therapy over the years for random issues, and if there’s something I’m doing in physical therapy and I understand how I can modify or bring it back to the Pilates studio with me- you know, maybe for shoulder bridge we’re doing a leg out instead of up- there are definitely certain tweaks that I make that I think: “Okay, I know the anatomical reason behind this, it is still classically based…” There are definitely contemporary modifications you can make on the classical repertoire.
Susannah: Or permission that can be granted. Of course, I said to someone the other day, it’s almost as if this method wanted to teach us how to fly! It’s so much, if we could just do it all! But we have to make modifications for reality and we have to understand that it will take us some time.
Sam: Right, and there are so many great Pilates instructors out there, I really encourage everyone to go search them out and learn from them and really expand your knowledge of Pilates and just find out for yourself what it really is.
Susannah & Sam’s Speed Round!
Susannah
City or beach?
Sweet or savory?
Cat or dog?
Adventure or comfort?
Books or movies?
Nights in or nights out?
Piercings or tattoos?
Summer or winter?
Sam
Tea or coffee?
Early bird or night owl?
Pizza or pasta?
Europe or Asia?
Spring or fall? Spring
Breakfast or dinner?
Spicy or mild?